PRIMITIVE FUTURE


Could you start by telling us a bit about your personal musical development? Who were your favourite bands when you were growing up? How did you discover the existence of alternative or underground music? When did you first become aware that you wanted to be a musician?

the only music that entered my experience as a child was my parents' collection (lots of classical, a bit of folk, and the beatles' sgt.pepper). this later expanded through other rock groups, but then new wave led me into electronic music. after that i sought out songs with a dark and mysterious edge, even if they were basically pop records. i found more "alternative" music in the late 80's and felt more at home, going back and finding out everything i'd missed. i started making my own music around 1983, but most of what i did until 1991 were experiments in songwriting and production, not really serious.


One thing I like about Dream Into Dust is that you don't seem to fit into any preconceived category or style. In other words, the expression, ideas etc. behind the music take precedence over the way they are expressed....the medium is subordinate to the message. Do you agree with this assessment? Do you find that people will try and place you in certain categories anyway, and what "scene" are you usually bracketed in?

i would agree somewhat, however if i were to write down my concepts plainly, it would not be the same as expressed through music and lyrics. without the medium the message is not conveyed as well. most people have a need to pigeonhole music in an attempt to get a grasp on it. the most common words used in description of dream into dust are "gothic" and "industrial", which are really loaded words to me. i would agree that our music would not sound as it does without our knowledge and love of bands in those genres. it would also be different without the classical, dark folk, noise, and even doom/death metal influences.


I have yet to hear any of your previous releases under the name december (but I'll get round to it very soon!), so could you describe the main differences from your current stuff? Are you still satisfied with the music december created?

some of it. it's difficult to remain satisfied with your own work, you always want to improve things. but i don't think it's embarassing, i'm glad it came out, especially the 7".


You speak of your music being "exorcised", rather than "performed" or "composed". Is the recording process ritualised? Do you find yourself feeling better after such an exorcism? I could well imagine a sensitive person using Dream Into Dust as an accompaniment to suicide....would this please you?

composition and performance of these intense feelings is a form of exorcism. these are forces inside all of us that need to find release somehow, or else they poison us from within. in recording sometimes special circumstances are necessary, such as singing "the lost crusade" in full military dress, or reciting "dissolution" naked, in total darkness. it really depends on the piece, but so far there's been no formal rituals taking place at the time of recording. suicide is something that crosses the minds of many people, myself included at times. but it's not something i would wish on anyone. it would upset any of us to learn that our music had accompanied that action. i think the subtext people miss is that despite the negativity we feel, we're still here.


The ending of one of your songs, Dissolution, also brings to mind the infamous Second Law of Thermodynamics. This law states that in a closed system, entropy never decreases....in other words, the universe is slowly but surely advancing towards a state of perfect balance (complete chaos). Do you believe the universe is destined for a genuine, and final, "dissolution", or do you believe all the matter will somehow "come back together", the so-called "big crunch", before a new unvierse rises again?

it depends on my frame of mind. sometimes it seems things go in cycles and every event is simply a point in that cycle. at other times i feel an ever-growing ominous sensation, an increasing heaviness, the onset of something horrible, which will at some point reach a conclusion. i don't know which is right, if either, or both.


Someone comes up to you and asks: "What on earth compels you to write such bleak, depressing music and lyrics? You seem to be an articulate, intelligent person, you live in a democratic society, you are well-fed, so why do you go out of your way to create all this negativity? What right do you have to be unhappy?" What is your reply?

i would say that person needs to be certain of their information before making such a statement and inquiry. most people know as little about my life and experiences as i know about theirs. to base a question on such assumptions shows a lack of interest in the real answer, as they've obviously already come to their own conclusion no matter what i say. having said that, to reply to each section: the music and lyrics express how i feel. certainly, at times some feelings are stronger than others. we're motivated to create out of need; need means something is lacking, hence the unhappiness. democratic society as it exists here, although preferable to most alternatives, is not the "total freedom" it's cracked up to be. in fact our intelligence allows us to recognise the fact that this is so, hence a different kind of helplessness, frustration, or rage is generated than in someone in another situation. personally, i struggle financially like most people and am not always "well-fed". regardless, everyone has the right to any emotion available to them. (Well answered! - Paul)


Instead of the typical musical influences, you list a couple of unusual sources of inspiration for No Man's Land. One of these is Godfrey Dawson's hermetic tarot. In what ways has this inspired you? Do you or have you used tarot for divinatory purposes? I only know a little about it myself, but a couple of decks I found impressive were the Merlin Tarot for it's ambitious concept, and Crowley and Lady Harris' Thoth for its brilliant artwork. What do you think of these ones?

i haven't seen the merlin tarot, but i agree the thoth is impressive. the detailed line art of the hermetic tarot drew me to it, as well as the golden dawn connection. i have used it for divination a bit, but mainly for inspiration through random drawings and meditation on certain individual cards. unfortunately my exploration of it hasn't been as extensive as i'd like. patrick and bryin are more acquainted with tarot.


The other major influence you listed is the film Ulysees' Gaze by Theo Angelopoulous...can you perhaps speak a little bit about the film, and why it has made such an intense impression on you?

the american release of this film came at a time when everything was uncertain, and the movie depicts a personal journey of a man through many countries and situations as he seeks something which seems so trivial, and yet to him it means everything. at times the world is just a surreal and dangerous backdrop for the lives of individuals, meanwhile each person is also a bit player in a larger picture. by the end you feel as if your insides have been crushed by stone.


You have also been influenced by a cult TV show called The Prisoner, which I think Death In June (amongst other bands) have also mentioned as an influence. I know absolutely nothing about this show, so could you tell me a bit about it?

the prisoner was a brilliant but short-lived series that first ran in england in 1967-68. some may have heard of its predecessor danger man or the u.s. version secret agent (and its famous theme song) that starred the same actor and executive producer, patrick mcgoohan. the premise came from the supposed existence of a secret "retirement home" for spies or people who knew too much and needed protection. this expanded to include those who retired prematurely or "disappeared", as well as the concept that no one would be allowed to leave. the main character spends the 17 episodes attempting to escape or thwart his captors' plans of extracting information from him, during which we see many comments on society as well as a devious array of mind games. the show posthumously gained cult status and the official the prisoner was a brilliant but short-lived series that first ran in england in 1967-68. some may haprisoner appreciation society has been around for over 20 years. we released a prison for oneself as a tribute for the 30th anniversary.


What about your runic influences? How deep are they? Do you use the runes for divination?

the runes played a greater part in my life in 1994-1996, but they may become more prominent again. once something has become a part of you it's always there.


How have you gone about performing live with December/Dream Into Dust? Do you think live shows are important? Would you ever consider doing a tour?

different types of shows would be interesting, some with a full setup, others as more experimental/noise with percussion, and still others acoustic. live shows are important and desirable, it's just the negative factors that put us off, and we want to be prepared. a tour would be quite a bit of work, but we'd consider it if the circumstances were right.


I understood you were signed to Elfenblut, but my copy of No Man's Land is on Chthonic Streams....how come? Is Chthonic Streams your own label? What are your aims with it?

right when no man's land was ready, elfenblut's release schedule was full. i felt it was important to get the MCD out rather than wait for months and delay the progress of the band, especially as only a few months later we had to do the prisonerchthonic streams was born out of necessity, but has grown into its own force, to be a mailorder for our releases and other related projects.


You are involved with Of Unknown Origin, and also do some work for Loretta's Doll....what can you tell us about these two groups?

loretta's doll has been around since 1992, they're a bizarre group that impressed me when i first saw them since they had a "gothic" influence but were basically warping a unique form of experimental improvisation into dark little songs, with some unorthodox instrumentation. we became acquainted through my doing design work for them, which turned into a closer working relationship in recent years. i helped them a bit on the nocturnal arcadedream into dust releases i began to work on a different project with bryin which became of unknown origin. this project is more electronic and experimental with a noisy edge, and ranges from deepambient to tribal/industrial. the CD seven ovens of the soul is out on bryin's suffering clown label through world serpent.


It must be awful living in such a large city as New York! Do you get out into the countryside or wilderness much? Where do you usually write your music?

i'm not a big fan of "the wilderness" other than short visits to "commune with nature" as it were. there are a few decent parks in the city, and one can always hop a train to one of the boroughs or a nearby state. sometimes the lyrics are written when outdoors, sometimes while on some kind of journey, but usually are finished up at home under great concentration.


New York City is known as a major "melting pot" of cultures and races. Do you think multi-culturalism is a good or a bad thing? I think it sucks! (Multiculturalism is another word for MONOculturalism....) Or don't you feel it is that clear cut an issue?

on the same planet, or the same areas, different people must coexist peacefully, but not force each other into becoming something they may not choose to be. i will have whatever interests and influences i choose, whether they are in my "culture" or not. i think it's sad when people feel the need to define themselves on such a broad scale, as though a particular culture will give them anything more than a cookie-cutter personality. i have more of a sense of identity than "i was born here and my ancestors were this and that".
(All the same, cultural heritage serves as a basis for identity. The roots are as important to the plant as the leaves. And in a way, it is not the actual idea of a "multicultural society" I am opposed to, it is the motives of the people who are pushing it. The "multicultural" ethic being sold by the liberal media, McDonalds ads etc. is nothing more than an attempt to create a society of raceless subhuman clones who can be more easily persuaded to buy certain products in order to be seen as being like everyone else, thus "boosting" the economy. Deep down it actually stems from a fear of difference and diversity, not a respect for these things. When no one dares claim reverence for their ancestry for fear of being seen as "racist" it will be a victory for anti-individualism. I am personally in favour of true multiculturalism; that is, as many and diverse cultures and races as possible, each thriving in their own area of the world. Anyone who is in favour of true diversity should be against the egalitarian "multicultural" propaganda that is being forced on us. - Paul)

It is a fact that the American consumer culture has infected almost the entire earth. How does it feel living in the land that is the source of the infection, so to speak? I mean, I saw an ad on TV yesterday for some American drama, and the voice-over said "As seen by forty million Americans", as if that fact was so impressive it would immediately make people here want to watch it (and it probably would!). Young people in Australia, as in other countries, are fed a constant diet of American movies, computer games, sports teams, fast food etc., and they swallow it all hook line and sinker. Does this make you sad, amused, disgusted? Do you think there is any realistic hope to fight against this onslaught of garbage?

what you're talking about arises from a combination of greed and stupidity on a large scale. hence the only hope to combat the effects are education and economic power. basically everything is driven by "what sells", and what sells is product that panders to the crass and dim-witted. if both the programmers and the general populace weren't such idiots then the quality of what's being produced and sold on a mass level would improve.


In fact, extrapolating, do you think there is any hope for "saving" the human race at all? I personally think the answer could lie in two steps. First; a large scale reduction of the population by, amongst other methods, forced sterilization of certain classes of people, and a one child limit for the rest (as in China), and secondly; the restoration of balance between mankind and nature by a mass return to the natural (heathen) religions of the past. Please give your own thoughts, and feel free to launch an attack/critique on my ideas. Can you suggest any other large scale solutions or do you think it is hopeless, that all we can do is concentrate on our own individual lives? In short, do you think the human situation is not just beyond fixing, but not even worth wanting to fix? Could you give some realistic predictions for the next fifty years or so of human history?

people distinguish themselves not by class or race, but by intelligence, individuality, will. (I wasn't referring to race or social/economic class, I was referring to classes of people who should not be encouraged to breed, such as people with Down's syndrome, drug addicts, fundamentalist christians, and so forth - Paul) some concentrate on their own lives, others do their best to make changes through influence. whatever improves things. i can't forsee a completely unified mass movement of any real worth, since such groups split into factions when they inevitably disagree on certain points. that's not a bad thing, since without that will to question, people simply become another type of sheep, which solves nothing. small battles may be won here and there, but the war seems never-ending.


What are some of your thoughts (if any) on the following subjects:

a) Black Metal: emperor, ulver, burzum, summoning, and darkthrone are the only ones i like.

b) Quantum theory: not my forté!

c) Eternal Recurrence: i believe events, and possibly people, do constantly recur, although the setting and the scale may change.

d) Psychoanalysis: can be good, can also be dangerous if the psychoanalyst has their own agenda or problems. talking with a few intelligent, insightful and caring friends can usually accomplish the same results.

e) Tasmania: again, not my forté! (Grrrr!...you were supposed to say "the greatest place in the world", "O mighty and wonderous island of legend" etc. etc. - Paul)

f) The Unabomber: a shame that such events become mythical parts of popular culture. the less said about them the better. (hmmm....I thought it deserved a bit more discussion than that....Paul)

Thanks for answering this rather lengthy interview, Derek. I hope it was interesting enough. What did you think of the questions?

very interesting, thanks.


Now say what thou wilt to end it....

question everything.







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